MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
PARTICIPANTS: Abd al Halirn Khaddam, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs
Sameeh Thwfeek Abou Fares, Syrian Arab Republic Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger. Secretary of State and Assistant to the President’ for National Security Affairs Peter W. Rodman, NSC Staff
Isa K. Sabbagh, Special Assistant to Amb. Akins, Jidda (Interpreter)
DATE AND TIME : Sunday, March 9, 1975 11:55 am – 12: 30 pm.
PLACE : in the car from airport to the American Ambassador’s Residence; The Residence Damascus
Khaddam: How is President Ford?
Kissinger: President Ford is fine.
Schwoebel [driver of the limousine) is one of the veterans of the Afrika Corps.. That’s a joke.
I said to the press I wanted to review with you the progress toward peace in the Middle East and that peace in the Middle East requires the participation of all countries. [See arrival statement, attached at Tab A).
Khaddam: Yes.
Kissinger: So, I’ve put on the record what our attitude is.
Khaddam: How is the health of President Sadat and Minister Fahmy?
Kissinger: They’re both fine. Fahmy complains that I’ve said Khaddam is the outstanding Foreign Minister in the Arab world. He complains that I have never said it about him. I said it in Saudi Arabia and they reported it to the Egyptians.
khaddam: And he really was upset?
Kissinger: He noted he had never had a report of my saying it about him.
Khaddam : I find it very difficult to find anybody who does praise Mr. Fahmy I said it as a joke.
Kissinger: I know. “.1 know that when Fahmy comes to the next: NATO meeting Khaddam will be jealous.
Khaddam: We might even delegate responsibility for him to represent the Arabs!
Kissinger: [indicating something .by the roadside] Is this. the UNDOF memorial here? [Laughter].
Khaddam: Your statements in Cairo smacked of a lot of optimism…
Kissinger: No, they were Egyptian statements. I only said I Came here to make progress. I didn’t say progress had been made… The Egyptian press is very optimistic, but I don’t know based on what.
Khaddam: Egyptian optimism must be based on optimism about progress in the Sinai.
Kissinger: It may be. I’ve never misled you. It may be based on their hope, their analysis –but it is not based on objective Israeli proposals.
I find by giving President Assad so much exposure in the American press, ·I’m turning him into a formidable weapon. Hels learning how to use the. American press with great skill.
Khaddam.: Yes, he did conduct a few interviews.
Kissinger: Yes, very skillful. Look, whatever you may think, I want Syria to have an improving reputation in America. And you know I have worked to bring that about. I always say good things about President Assad and the Syrian leadership in America.
Khaddam: This is obvious. We, of course, attribute to you a major role in persuading the American press and the Congress to visit Syria.
Apparently the BBC broadcast an item that you were going to Europe to visit Gromyko soon.
Kissinger: No. I going to Ankara tomorrow.
Khaddam: Not to Israel?
Kissinger: Yes, tonight I go to Israel, then tomorrow I go to Ankara. I want to see if they can find Makarios’ cook
Khaddam: That will be difficult, because his cook is dead.
Kissinger: Really? You looked into it?
Khaddam: No, but it’s difficult.
Kissinger: I’m prepared in principle to see Gromyko in Europe, but we have not fixed a time yet.
Khaddam: I was aware of that and that is why I was’ surprised at the news from. London.
Kissinger: We have not fixed a time.
Khaddam: What are the general preparations that Israel is prepared to do?
Kissinger: The truth is, the Israeli Cabinet is so unreliable that I have not let them, make a decision — or, to put it better, I have not asked them to make a decision, because there would be such trouble in America. But I’ll ask them now, and I will have a better idea after this visit.
Khaddam: The Egyptians are pinning great hopes on Dr. Kissinger’s visit to the area. They’re raising the people’s hopes ii1 their information media.
Kissinger: I saw that, and frankly I asked President Sadat not to be so optimistic. Maybe you saw it last night.
It’s almost Spring here.
What the Egyptians want is the passes and the oil fields.
Knaddam: Abu Rudeis
Kissinger: Yes. And the question is what Israel is willing to do.
Khaddam: Israel’s own latest statements — of course, they have been varied, but the latest Ones indicate that Israel will be willing to give up the fields.
Kissinger: There are two possible theories. The first is that you’re right, that they’re willing. The second possibility is that they’re trying to maneuver to give the impression to the American public that they’re willing. and they can then put pressure through Congress to give aid, etc. We’re putting pressure on them. now. And I’ve not really made up my mind. Because their statements really are very confusing and their official communications to me are very vague. This could again have two reasons: one is that they want to wait until I get here and don’t really trust their Ambassador in Washington, who is a friend of Golda but not close to Rabin. The second possibility is, again, that they’re playing with me.
Khaddam.: Then we assume on this visit you’ll get a clearer impression.
Kissinger: Absolutely. The confusion must, and will be removed on this visit.
Khaddam: OK, you get a clear impression on this visit, but if you think they’re maneuvering, what will be your decision?
Kissinger: In that case, we will have to take a drastic reexamination of policy in Washington
Khaddam: The conclusion is, therefore, that if you continue your impression, is good and you have a green light.
Kissinger: Yes, but I’ll you know; you don’t have to guess. But I want your President to know that whatever they may say in the papers, we do not cooperate in their isolation of Syria. That is not our policy.
Khaddam: Actually, we don’t derive our interpretation of their attitude from statements. The way events develop gives us a clearer picture.
With respect to the Palestinians, there is nothing new?
Kissinger: No. I mean our basic attitude is what I described last time. we are not permanently hostile to the Palestinians. But we have to pick the right moment. Because there is something about the country of Palestinian that produce leaks to the press.
Khaddam: Did you hear about President Assad’s speech last night?
Kissinger: Yes, it was very strong. I must say the President thinks he understands my tactics, and he probably does, but I understand his!
Khaddam: No, the President is working in accordance with a strategy, not tactics. What the President offered to the Palestinians is the result of long-term discussions with them. And the majority of the Arab countries will go, along.
Kissinger: But the timing is tactics.
Khaddam: But it was the appropriate occasion. It was the 8th of March.
Kissinger: Why are all the flags up? I appreciate it. You didn’t have to do it
Khaddam: It’s a national day.
Kissinger: This is a new route.
Sabbagh: We’re going to the Residence.
[At 12:15, the motorcade arrived at the Residence. The Secretary and Minister Khaddam took their seats in the living room
Kissinger: You realize the only reason King Faisal received me is so he can hear Isa [Sabbagh} speak in-Arabic. He never looks at me, always at Isa. He picks the lint off him!
Khaddam: King Faisal has told me of his admiration for you
Kissinger: I believe he is an outstanding man.
[The ladies arrive.]
How was Cuba?
Khaddam: I haven’t gone yet. I’m going on the 17th now.
Kissinger: I made some friendly remarks about Cuba last Saturday (in the speech at Houston.
Khaddam: And we’ll so be saying some good things about Cuba in Cuba. We might attack the United States in Cuba. [Laughter].
Kissinger: I suspected! Be careful, because we may be improving our relations. What is the purpose of that meeting?
Khaddam: It is a regular meeting of the office for coordination of non-aligned nations.
Kissinger: The most formidable alliance today is the alliance of the non-aligned.
Khaddam: It is not an alliance in the true sense, but it’s on the way.
Kissinger: Is Mrs. Khaddam going with you?
Khaddam: Yes, whenever I travel, I try to take her.
Kissinger: I try to do that.
Khaddam: Will we meet in Cuba?
Kissinger: Ask Castro.
Khaddam: I don’t’ think he will object
Kissinger: Maybe next year.
Khaddam: To effect a reconciliation between the U. S. and Cuba.
Kissinger: You can tell the Cubans we are in principle ready.
Khaddam: Senator Javits went
Kissinger: Yes, but that was not official.
Khaddam: What is the news of oil?
Kissinger: You’re going to reduce the price?
Khaddarn: No.
Kissinger: You don’t have any. That’s the only thing that saves us.
Khaddam: But we’re going to discover some. When the oil of the other Arabs begins to dwindle it’s then that the Syrians will strike oil. The initial surveys show good prospects.
Kissinger: You should. All your neighbors have oil.
Khaddam: Certain companies have made offers. Some American companies offered to survey off-shore.
Kissinger: I wouldn’t be surprised if you have some.
Khaddam: We have some — 70 million tons in 1975. It’s small, but we expect to have good prospects.
Kissinger: Will you join OPEC?
Khaddam.: Of course. We have to help ‘the Saudis and the Algerians; – [Laughter]
Kissinger: The price will double!
Khaddam.: Of course, because we have to make up the Losses due to the United States. The Saudis and Algerians help us in war when we are fighting, so we have to help their economies. We promised King Faisal to pray in Jerusalem
Kissinger: When?
Khaddam: It will happen.
You’re not optimistic?
Kissinger: No, I’d like to see him exercise his religious convictions.
Khaddam: There is a difference between being pleased and being optimistic
Kissinger: They told me a joke. They said Golda Meir took me to the wailing Wall and said. to me, “If you pray here, you’re talking directly to God. So I said I hope peace comes to the Middle East. So she said Why don’t you try another prayer? It So I said peace will be achieved on the ’67 borders. So Golda turned to her security people and said, “Look at that idiot. He thinks he’s talking to God and he’s talking to a wall. {Laughter}.
Khaddam: It’s a joke, but it sounds true.
Kissinger: There is an element of truth in it. [To Sisco]. The Foreign Minister is in great form. He’s going to Cuba.
Khaddam: It’s not final
Kissinger: He thinks the oil price is too low.
Khaddam: It’s because the dollar is doing down.
Kissinger: I like the speech of Boumediene. It was a very statesmanlike speech.
Khaddam: We’re achieving assistance from the Arab countries in dollars, and since the value of the dollar is going down, we have asked the Arab countries to increase their assistance to a commensurate extent.
Kissinger: Have they done it?
Khaddam: Not yet.
Kissinger: Has it been published how much they have given?
Khaddam: No;
[At 12:30 the group went outside on the porch for drinks after lunch. Secretary Kissinger took General Shihabi aside, when he arrived, for a private conversation of about 10 minutes. ]_. [The exchange of toasts at the luncheon is attached at Tab B.]
